Hello ,

[torrone77]

Hello!

I am back on line again....I actually logged on this morning but I changed my mind and decided to walk to the Farmer's Market first before it got too hot. I like to walk to the Farmer's Market to buy fresh fruits and vegetables but it can get pretty hot here in August so morning is best.

My friends's Father is doing better. He actually had surgery on his hip on Friday and was able to stand on his own yesterday. They say he needs many weeks of therapy because he has not used his leg muscles properly for years due to his childhood polio and they want him walking without help. One leg was shorter due to the polio and his hip was damaged therefore he stopped walking about 20 years ago and caused bone and muscle damage. However, my Friend and her Mother have a difficult time with him. She jokes that he is very smart...a PHD in Mathematics but he cannot handle the Hospital and gave the nurses a hard time. He would not take his medicine or eat one night and after her Mother finally went home to get a little sleep, they called her to come back. When she arrived he ate and took his medicine so he acts like this when he is without his wife. Whatever! Poor woman is very exhausted.

Anyway, my Friend is coming to have dinner at my Parent's house today. My Mom cooked the usual Italian Sunday dinner and invited her over so I am helping to cook

Ok I looked at Morten on the internet Good looking guy and looks cute still. I do have A-ha in my ipod and listened to it this morning while walking.....it is in alphabetical order right next to ABBA. But I only have that one song Take on Me because it was part of a CD with 80's and 90's hits. And....actually as I am writing this email I am watching Scorpions Wacken DVD....I have not watched it in a while and I guess it is good today since I went to Costa Mesa exactly one week ago.

Well maybe he will need a good doctor one day and you will be there to help him Where does he live or actually where is Aha from? I don't even know if it is England??

Yes a meeting in Spain would be nice...one day I hope to make it to Argentina too!! I must talk to my Friend and see what her plan is

Well happy studying and talk to yous soon, Ciao!

Sal

[Invitado]

Hello Sal ¡¡

I have actually met some patients like your friends father and know the type

Their wifes are really angels ¡ Well , he might be doing well with patience and effort.

Returning to Morten , I really love this man , I don´t know where he is living now , but his girl is from your country .They : Morten, Magne and Pal are Norwergian.

I have some fun ,in Ted´s topic about Band image and idolizing , have you read it?, it turns out a very funny topic.
Do you usually speak in Italian ?
My grandfather was italian , but I don´t know the language, altough I´m able to understand a little ,as we share with spanish a latin origin.

Catch you later ,un abrazo y un beso .Maybe this is quite different in italian , it means a hug and a kiss.

[torrone77]

Hello Adriana,

How is it going with your studies? Hope all is well.

Oh ok...A-ha is Norwegian...I thought something like that but not sure where exactly. His Girl is Italian? Lucky lady!

I have read the topic about idolizing the band. Yes that was interesting. I was going to post something last night but I did not quite know how to say it. Well everybody has their opinion and it has gone well...no arguments for once

I speak Italian but usually to my Parents only. In fact we actually speak a Sicilian dialect daily but I do speak Italian too. Yes there are many of Italian descent in Argentina as my Parents remembers a lot of Italians moving there when they were kids. My Father was actually sent to Venezuela for one year when he was 19 in the Italian Army and he learned to speak Spanish. Of course my Parents now both speak Spanish pretty fluently since we are living in Los Angeles and there are many Spanish speakers here. So yes we share some Latin origin. So did your Grandfather immigrate from Italy?

One more day of work and then I get three days off

Tanti Bacci!

Sal

[Invitado]

Kind of tired ,about studying.....

No ,Morten´s girl lives in USA ¡¡

Yes ,my grandfather´s cames from Italy as a boy ,I believe, he dies when I was 1 year old , don´t have many memories of him.

I have found as well ,some hard times to post ,or with the replies to my posts.

It´s quite strange , I don´t have problems dealing with people every day ,not at work neither at the Master , they are all men , we are only four girls, and I have made close friends among them.

But here , it all seems a bit touchy.

I usually choose carefully the words , sometimes I got carried by the moment, and there were some post I regret having posted .

Well anyway ,it´s only my impression ,I'm a bit touchy myself, and I did aplogize a couple of times when I tought I was wrong.

Kisses Sal.

[torrone77]

Hello Adriana,

I sent you a PM. Have a good day!

Sal

[Invitado]

Hi Sal

Well ,here I am , and I`ve done it again.

I mean , all my life ,everyone messed around me ( my brother , my school mates ,my friends ) ,and it was ok , then, when I ( that always behave as a good girl ) go one step further ,I always get caughed
I`m feeling like a little kid .

You probably won`t know what the hell I`m talking about , I`m gonna tell you later.( may be as a PM)

See you,

[torrone77]

Hi Adriana,

Oh oh...... I will wait and see what you are referring to.

You could not have been that bad of a girl,,,could you?

Well you are laughing so this should be good

Ciao

Sal

[Invitado]

Oh , but I have already told you about this , in our last Pm ¡¡

No ,you´re right, no matter how hard I try, I can´t never be as bad as I wish sometimes to be

[Guest]

Oh , but I have already told you about this , in our last Pm ¡¡

No ,you´re right, no matter how hard I try, I can´t never be as bad as I wish sometimes to be

Hello Adriana, and Sal, also! You are having a good womanly conversation here, I see. Yes, it is called a "good girl´s syndrome"
Those of us women, who have a kind character, trying to do the "right thing" to be accepted and loved and liked, often end up like victims of our own goodness, because there are always those that take advantage of our softness...

Then, if we later on in our lives suddenly realize that our lives are only half lived, us putting the brakes on all our lives so that we wouldn´t irritate or hurt anybody, if we suddenly think of ourselves and become selfish in a healthy way, then we are considered "nut cases".. "she just suddenly lost it" And she was SO NICE, SUCH A GOOD GIRL.

In a way things are much easier on a woman who has been a bit rebel all her life, not accepting the "good girl " package ever. She can live a much healthier life, more satisfying, anyway. But it´s never too late to start following your heart and accept the fact that you are going to hurt somebody on this process. Too bad, that´s life. You cannot be the "darling girl" to everybody all your life. You just end up being a miserable, bitter old woman regretting the things you didn´t do when you had a chance.

[Invitado]

Hi Len ¡¡¡

I´m glad you step in again

Well, I like your challenge I would like to discuss it for a while.

The first person I felt like dissapointing ,was my father.He is the first person I realize I was always trying to be proud of me ,and of course ,no matter what I do , he always wasn´t.
I realize about this as a grown up , it took me some time ( years ) to get it.

I did react then ,and I followed my heart, I got divorced and I didn´t put any brake in falling in love with Walter ,as an example ,although my both parents were ,for several reasons.

I surely don´t want to regret things I haven´t done ,and feel miserable ,as you said ,I agree.

But ,in my youth ,I didn´t measure my words , as I do , or least I try to do now , and I found myself in a lot of quarrels .
And when it all ends up , I always feel I was getting the worst share , cause I didn´t feel satisfied.

Then I realize ,that if I jump into this situations , I must have a very good reason ,cause surely ,I would get hurted in middle.

So ,altough I know I can be hard enough to stand by my principles ( eg at my work), or having to stand by a friend ,or an unfair situation , I think it twice in other cases ,and always choose not be rude .
It´s true I´d rather prefer to be liked, but I´m also sure ,that If I´m caught in between decissions ,I will pick that one I felt it is fair ,no matter what could happen after that move.

In other situations,.... well I feel more like being the kind and caring person, I already am.

Now it´s your move Len ,I´ll be waiting for you

[Guest]

AAAAhhh, so this is a ball game !

Anyway , this "good girl" syndrome usually concerns girls and younger women under...35, let´s say. Usually around 40, the latest, when you start thinking back about your life , and wondering if your inner self got lost on the way, THEN you are ready to make small, or even bigger changes in your life, you feel powerful enough, finally. ( I don´t mean you, Adriana, I mean the general you )
Usually these changes come around the time when the children have grown up at last and are more independent and don´t need their mother so badly every moment anymore. But this said, we are the weird birds , we, who made children later, so these things don´t fit to us.
I was always a good girl at home, but I realized all the time that it was not the real me, that I had a big thirst of leaving home as soon as I had a place to study , 300km from home . That was really good for me, and getting to know my real self . I just had to try how far would I go in this and that.... OH, BOY getting nostalgic, now...

[Invitado]

Oh ,Lenita ,I liked your words very much.

I did´t even knew about that syndrome , but is good to learn ,that this feelings are being shared with others.

I liked that powerfull enough sentence...., is kind of what I´m feeling lastly....,even though, my kid is only 5.

And this journey you talk about ,leaving home , studying ,looking for our path....., but all the sudden we finally got trapp again, in our home ¡ with our kids ¡¡¡ It´s funny ,for all of us women , we always get caughed again .

My poor angel Ivan , doesn´t have me trapped here for a long time , I´m preety much time outside working ,or studying , but I´m always here in the nights ,and weekends . I don´t even go out to see friends ,cause I think it´s not fair ,leaving him again, so I spend my nights watching cartoons

Don´t get too nostalgic

[torrone77]

Hello Girls!

Sorry Adriana I got lost on this thread a bit and did not realize you were referring to that situation you wrote about in the PM.

I agree with every word you both have said so far. This syndrome is so common in a lot of my girlfriends and even myself. Women in particular are frequently trying to make everybody else happy except themselves sometimes...maybe because of out care taker nature. We do not like people to be disappointed in us so we act as we think others perceive that we should be. It is so subconscious sometimes we do not even realize that we do it. Did you ever notice women will frequently go around saying "I am sorry" for menial things?

I have read many articles about this....you do find some males with all this but not as often and they usually manifest it in different ways. And you are right Len, for instance, I grew up in a strict Italian household here in the U.S. and I was always restricted from doing a lot of things my friends could do and as a teenager, yes, you need parental guidance but sometimes too much makes you want to rebel and you want to find yourself. I moved away to college after high school and lived on campus about 30 minutes away but.....this was the best thing for me and my identity. Everyone must "act up" in order to test themselves. And Adriana, we all make different judgements in life, sometimes good, sometimes bad, but the important thing is we learn and get stronger. As you get older, you make realizations about what you want out of life and that is ok to revisit some things. All people make good and bad choices...even those that act content and "Good" but I think the difference is that they are comfortable with their decisions because they accept themselves so well.

As for me, I am in a weird point in my life...I have a good career, friends, family, and I do a lot with my time ...and I am thankful but....I cannot help but feel so behind when it comes to marriage and family since I have not been married and no children but....whatever..I guess destiny plays some part.

Bottom line we cannot go forever pleasing everyone and the people that have it figured out are those that have that caring attitude but still know how to stick to their principles....it is a balance.

Well I better go to sleep since I work tomorrow

But I look forward to continuing our talk...buona notte

[Guest]

Buongiorno!

These subjects are something that concern all the women all over the world. In countries where the role differences are still big and clear (women-men) ,of course the women are struggling for their independence and the right to be "their own personalities" and to be content and satisfied as women.

The other side of the coin comes from Finland, which is on the far extreme end in these things. Due to several reasons,(the hard climate not being the least of them) women and men have always worked side by side, in almost equal jobs and conditions. The family wouldn´t survive otherwise (ok, I´m talking of 100 years ago). Now, with all the consciousness of the modern women , the roles have become blurred. In most families, where the adults are around 30-40years, all the house work is shared equally, according to the personal preferations. Some men like a clean house, so they are the ones cleaning , some men like cooking , so they are the ones responsible for the families meals. And in most families, both are working outside of home. These things result to 2 things, among others :

The children who come home from school, won´t have anybody at home waitíng for them, and they don´t feel secure or loved, when it continues many years. And they start having psychological symptoms...

Women and men are a bit lost in their sexual roles. F.ex. men in Finland have started complaining how women come to a bar to stay among themselves or to pick up men for one night stand, only. The women are only satisfying theirs sexual needs, and are not looking for serious relationships anymore...
And, a man who is taking care of children , staying home with the small children so the wife can go to work, to realize her ambitions at work, does not really nourish the sexual fantasies of the women anymore.
And they "dump" these good men! HOOOLLLYYYY MOOOSSEESSS

I don´t know why I started talking about these things, maybe to show you the other extreme of finding yourself and following your own road, not to be the one who always bends and agrees with the demands of the others....

So neither extreme is good. The right BALANCE is the key word. And it is really difficult to find "the other half" who is on the same level of intelligence and thinking so that both of your lives would be happy
Do I sound like a psychologist or a teacher ? " I do, yes I doooooooo "" la laaa laaaaaaaa

[torrone77]

Hello!

This is very interesting indeed. We will just call you Dr. Len

I do agree with a lot of what you are saying though and these types of discussions come up between my girlfriends sometimes. I can relate in some way. For example, my Parents were born and raised in Sicily in the 1930's and did not move to the U.S. until 1964. I can say growing up that I gradually saw their roles change a bit. My Parents grew up in a time and place that had those distinct male/female roles you mentioned. My Mother never worked or drove a car until she was almost 50 years old and I see after being here for so long that she has become more dominant. She still does most of the traditional womanly things like cooking, cleaning as that is her comfort zone and it is too late to change my father...he will not cook but she definitely has changed her thinking over the years. Then growing up in this generation for myself I see the other side you talked about where the female is pretty dominant. I guess I have seen two extremes and it can be confusing. Even back in Sicily where my cousins, family lives, things have changed drastically too so I guess the "revolution" is still going.

Wow I did not know that about what you mentioned in Finland. That is pretty funny the men are complaining about women not wanting relationships anymore I guess around here (in the big city mostly) it is kind of like marriage and family is becoming rare and many are married for short times before they divorce. At least that is what I see anyway.....I have a second wave of friends that are in their late 30's and 40's becoming single again after divorcing.

Yes I hate to admit that phenomenon that sometimes the nice guys are left behind because they are not fulfilling the sexual side so it all goes back to that difficult dilemma.....finding that balance and finding the whole "package." Although I still see that on the reverse too...the nice girls left behind too. I don't know what is the thing today ......I mean my friends and I were having this lengthy discussion one night about the difficulty of relationships and in the end one friend made us alll laugh so hard when she said "come to think of it....how do people get together at all?"

Life......

Ok Dr. Len I wait for your comments. Adriana is all ok?

Ciao!

Sal

[Invitado]

Yes ,Sal ,it´s all ok.

I´ve just returned from my weekend of classes at the master, ( Friday and Saturday ) , and I´m a bit tired.

I will join you tomorrow ,if you don´t mind. I like the way it had flew.

Good night both of you,

adriana

[torrone77]

Great you are done with exams.....yes of course, you write at your leisure....I thought you were taking exams......and I am sure you are glad it is over.

Good night...get some rest!

Buona Notte

Sal

[Guest]

Oh shoot! I don´t want to be called Dr Len !!!! But the thing is , you know, that I do have the advantage of age on my side, as well as being able to compare two completely different cultures in this sense (ok, Greece is not an extreme, not anymore...) and also that we Finnish women have always been very... independent and strong, breaking away and questioning the traditional roles of women and men....
Now I´ m following from close how things are going here in Greece, and I can see what direction it is going to.... for them to find the bad side of the new found individual freedom.

One symptom of the search for more "selfish" satisfaction of life is this divorce boom. In Finland , at least 50% of the marriages break up. People don´t want to give effort and to try to be reflexible and to try to find a compromise , they rather break it up and start all over again , hoping to find a "perfect match". And now, please , don´t misunderstand me, I do not want to say that people who are unhappy in their marriage (due to infedility, alcholism, violence etc,) should try and stick there because of children or some conventional expectations from the relatives and community.. When you have both respect and self-respect, everything should be alright!

Goddamnit! I did it again! Sounding like a wise Len ....

[Invitado]

Oh , no Sal ,you got it wrong , it was Ok ,cause I have returned home ,but unfortunately , I have 2 more weeks of studying .My exam is the 6.

Well, you both have been pretty busy, and I love to read your posts.

Let me start claiming ,that I will be moving to Finland as soon as I can ,and try to find the cooking type man ,he would make the most happy woman in the earth ,if I never have to cook again .

As for loosing sexual roles, Lenita is wright , we can never be in love with a man that express his females side in such way.

So ,I strongly agree in what difficult is to find our other half.
In my country ,is more the Italian or Spain examples , the more "macho" man ,they don´t stay at home watching the childs .Maybe we don´t have so many divorces .And maybe we still fight to remain togheter, but ,altough I do respect my two partners , I couldn´t manage to make it last.
I try to be a lot in touch with Ivan´s father altough, so he can still have the idea of what a family should be.( arguments included )

And I founfd myself now ,pretty much like Sal´s friend , wondering ,how do people get togheter ??
no matter if I too have the experience and advantage of age by my side.

Well wise Len , I think that that Dr thing really suits you.

Don´t have any wise conclusion , I still haven´t found an answer for me ,and for my future.

[torrone77]

Hello Girls,

Ok we will not call you Dr. Len anymore....I will just call you both "wise girls"

Yes I pretty much agree again with all the words expressed. I think that the fact that women are more independent and are able to support themselves has greatly affected things regarding people being able to search for that "selfish" satisfaction. People do not have to be in a rush to marry young since they can support themselves. Also, there is really no deterrent to divorce anymore....again not that I think that people should stay together in bad situations. Don't misunderstand me......just that these days things work out differently than 40 years ago because since usually both husband and wife work, the financial situation is not always a main consideration in staying together anymore. But people do what they have to do and sometimes that is just life.

Ok Adriana...we will congratulate you again when you finally finish your exams

Len.....how much is an apartment in Finland?

Ok I will go out for a little evening walk now before it gets too dark

Ciao!