[VirginKiller]

well blackooout your president is giving weapons to Hizballa here in Lebanon and he's backing them....when you go to some Hizballa place you see his picture everywhere like if you were in Iran:P

Juho...I'm SuperCharles

Conclusion I think every country should mind of its own business..
Here's a question for the people who were with this war:Don't you think your army will be more useful if they work in your own country saving lives inside and catching your nation terrorists???
For example in the US there's a huuuuuuuuuge number of crimes...


And

[Stormchaser]

VirginKiller: Conclusion I think every country should mind of its own business..
When you’ve been attacked (terrorists, Afghanistan) it is your business. When you or your allies are threatened (Iraq) it is your business. When a country (Iraq) invades another country (Kuwait) then defies the terms of peace it agrees to when it (Iraq) loses, it is your business. When that country (Iraq) has a history of aggression and has proclaimed you (USA) a sworn enemy and has called for your annihilation, it is your business. The cost of not demanding accountability emboldens the one held accountable (Iraq) as well as other enemies (North Korea, Al Quaida) and invites further peril at the hands of both.

If my country hadn’t followed your advice in WW2, millions of lives could have been saved. Too bad for all those victims that it (USA) chose to mind it’s own business way too long. Ignore a threat at your own peril as well as the peril of many others.
VirginKiller: Here's a question for the people who were with this war:Don't you think your army will be more useful if they work in your own country saving lives inside and catching your nation terrorists???
No. That’s the responsibility of the police and the FBI. Unless Marshall Law is declared, the military is not allowed to function as a policing force inside my country. The military is more useful doing exactly what it is doing.
AlexDeep: Do you believe there were any chemical arms??? F$$L S-=-T!
Yep. He used them against the Kurds and against Iran. He used them before, he’d use them again. He’s not a very nice guy.
AlexDeep: Dostoevski once wrote that nothing is worth the childs tear. I ve seen an Iraqian child without arms.
"Happiness for Iraq people!"

I wonder how many tears were spilled for the 300,000, repeat 300,000, Iraqi people that died at Saddam’s hand.
AlexDeep: BUT I feel a little bit SORRY for him cause there was no reason for hunting him and his nation...
Send him a Christmas card. Here’s one I crafted:

You’re a kind-hearted dictator who’s misunderstood
Look past all your doings and you’re really quite good
Some chemical bombs against those bad Kurds
A missile for those that don’t heed your words
Tanks that went rolling to the heart of Kuwait
A promise of riches did surely await
The UN believed you and your noble charade
While you sent lots of money to the Martyrs Brigade
Inspectors went looking with your small rebuke
Said you had nothing when you almost had a nuke
But the time has arrived to pay up your toll
Since you were found in your dirty little hole
No rapes nor more murders will come from your hand
Your victims will see you taking the stand
They no longer fear a cruel agony
The people are free from your tyranny
You now face a future with anguish and fear
Have a very scary Christmas and a crappy new year!

Hey, is that the President of Hallmark on the phone calling me?

[Alexdeep]

Very humorous Stormchaser!
Seriously - you have a talent!
No proof found AND SHOWED FOR OTHER NATIONS of using chemical arms. You may say anything but it is a FACT.
Hey here is something about your "buisness": reasons you'ìó mentioned are all FAKE for those who are ready to eat them - cause you may find "BAD deeds (same with those you've mentioned)" done by ANY OTHER COUNTRY (read HISTORY).
But REAL REASONS are economical reasons at the head of all others. OIL and two main others I've written them in the topic "Political beliefs ..."

And the comment about WW2 (although i respect your country contribution): You've started war after Perl Harbour (hmm.. I gues it was not your decision!) fighting mostly with japanese. Then there was Normand coast ... Hmm.. Rusvelt and Cherchill met and talked this way:
- Hey man! Those Russians are going to defeat Germans...
- Yeah, we've waited for a long time, but now They can go through all Europe - we must DO SOMETHING!
- I guess we should start fighting from the other side of the FRONT...
- Agreed!

[Funnynunny]

lmao@stormchaser great poem and i think that is hallmark calling you! lol....and alex do me a very kind favor in good faith ok?...come and live in the usa then you'll see and understand the difference of our lives. its still my opinion that pres.bush and the rest of the coaliation countries did the right thing for iraq and the iraqi people. and another thing for those of you that oppose to all of this....PUT YOURSELVES IN THE IRAQI PEOPLE'S FEET AND SEE HOW YOU LIKE THE SHOE ON THE OTHER FOOT!....and i hope all of you will understand why pres.bush did what he did. now everyone STOP FREAKIN FIGHTING OVER POLITICS AND GET REAL IN HAPPINESS FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!!

[Alexdeep]

Oh. I see myself as an iraqian boy throwing a stone in american soldier. See myself as an american woman crying out loud: "Get out of here invaders!" and so on ... There is always opposition in any country at the same time ... It is an internal deal of the country...

Hey Funny - we are not fighting - just trying to cathch the truth out of the discussion! Is it so bad?

[Aslan]

Ok one brief comment about WWII.....the US was
fighting under the british flag before Pearl Habor
wass bombed.....they were flying planes with the
Brits against the Germans.....and from my history
books the main thing that helped Russia to beat the
Germans were the very cold winters that Russia
is known for....also during WWII Poland was invaded
by Germany first then Russia to protect the Russian
front.....
Stormy, very funny....and the headquaters for
Hallmark is where?????? That is right KC.....
GO CHIEFS....
And Nunny there is no happiness in war...
there is no happiness in capturing Saddam....
Why?? Because now there is a greater risk
to our troops in Iraq and the middle east....
I am planning a trip to Europe this summer and
to be honest I am kinda scared to go.....why???
BECAUSE I AM AN AMERICAN....so please tell me
where I can find happiness in all of this....
KB/MJ

PS Alex I am sorry for my comments before...Our
governments have never seen eye to eye but like I
said before you and I have things in common....
And I like a healthly debate.....

[Blackooout]

Originally posted by VirginKiller
well blackooout your president is giving weapons to Hizballa here in Lebanon and he's backing them....when you go to some Hizballa place you see his picture everywhere like if you were in Iran:P



ohhhh its our problem too cuz he in spendin' our money for others in other hand he throw away our money

[dirty__mind]

I agree with Vurginkiller's list.
Our Problem in Lebanon is That our enemy's are enemy's. I can't find any country that doesn't have a lot of polical problems. I know that our problem in Lebanon will be solved when the Dr Samir Geagea is released from jail where he doesn't belong and where he is because of political's order from ****ing Syria. And it will be solved when General Michel Aoun Is back to Lebanon. They will,TOGETHER, kick syria out of Lebanon.
Virginkiller ur right abt our president.

I THINK THAT SADDAM SHOULDN'T BE KILLED COZ THE BIGGEST CRIME IS TO SOLVE CRIME WITH ANOTHER ONE. IF WE DON'T KILL HIM OR WE DO, WHAT WILL CHANGE?? THE PAST HAPPENED AND THE PEOPLE THAT SADDAM KILLED THEM WILL NOT RELIVE.

[VirginKiller]

Well Stormchaser I dunno who fights internal crimes in your country but I do know they're not enough and if you take those army men in the police or FBI forces they'll be more useful..
And how did they become your enemies?? by not liking your flag?I don't think so..it's becuz you started minding about their business...I mean no one will want the US as an enemy just for fun....
And about the chemical weapons the US were going to invade Iraq wether there's or not chemical weapons...

And MJ you shouldn't be afraid or anything I mean do you really think they are after every american citizen??
And Spain is safe for the US people....I don't think there is any anti-americans there

[Julchinda]

It's great!!!!!! And ya, the next must be Ben Laden. The world must be free and happy. Live is so difficult, AIDS, drugs, hatred, misunderstanding...And wars make it harder. We do not need them. Why must innocent people die? They live peacefully, feel happy, love...And suddenly are killed. Who wants to die like THAT? There are terrors in Moscow. I'm afraid of going to the centre.... WE DO NOT NEED TERRORS.

[Funnynunny]

no alex it isn't wrong. but the way i'm slightly taking the some of the posts sounds like it ok? esepecially when some but not all but some people say its USA meaning the country. when i read that its like people blame the country. usa was here before any of us americans ever were here on or in this country. its not the countries or any countries fault pertaining to the wars or dislikes with everyones governments. we the people have nothing to do with what our governements deciesions are. we have no choice but just to live with just like you or anyone else in all of your(s) countries. what i'm trying to say to the best of my ability please don't blame the country or we the people and 50% of the government. its not all(s) fault). i really hope you understand alex what i'm trying to say without getting offened ok? so please nobody blame the country. if you were to say the government of the usa then i won't get offeneded ok? does that make alot of sense to everyone? i truely hope so.thanks nunny!

[Space Case]

I thought that perhaps something that Michael Moore wrote recently would bring my perspective into this. And Nunny: Don't leave your life in the hands of this whacked out government. You have choices. Oh yes and one more thing. Here is my prediction for 2004. Come late August or September Bin Laden will be captured....dare I say annihilated.....This will ensure the 2004 election to you know who....When the polls are droppin....there is just no stoppin'...The Bushmeister. But hey you guys it could be worse for you...you could be living in a state that is governed by...."The Terminator"!


Thank God Saddam is finally back in American hands! He must have really missed us. Man, he sure looked bad! But, at least he got a free dental exam today. That's something most Americans can't get.


America used to like Saddam. We LOVED Saddam. We funded him. We armed him. We helped him gas Iranian troops.

But then he screwed up. He invaded the dictatorship of Kuwait and, in doing so, did the worst thing imaginable -- he threatened an even BETTER friend of ours: the dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, and its vast oil reserves. The Bushes and the Saudi royal family were and are close business partners, and Saddam, back in 1990, committed a royal blunder by getting a little too close to their wealthy holdings. Things went downhill for Saddam from there.


But it wasn't always that way. Saddam was our good friend and ally. We supported his regime. It wasn’t the first time we had helped a murderer. We liked playing Dr. Frankenstein. We created a lot of monsters -- the Shah of Iran, Somoza of Nicaragua, Pinochet of Chile -- and then we expressed ignorance or shock when they ran amok and massacred people. We liked Saddam because he was willing to fight the Ayatollah. So we made sure that he got billions of dollars to purchase weapons. Weapons of mass destruction. That's right, he had them. We should know -- we gave them to him!

We allowed and encouraged American corporations to do business with Saddam in the 1980s. That's how he got chemical and biological agents so he could use them in chemical and biological weapons. Here's the list of some of the stuff we sent him (according to a 1994 U.S. Senate report):

* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.

* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.

* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.

* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.

* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.

* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.

And here are some of the American corporations who helped to prop Saddam up by doing business with him: AT&T, Bechtel, Caterpillar, Dow Chemical, Dupont, Kodak, Hewlett-Packard, and IBM.


We were so cozy with dear old Saddam that we decided to feed him satellite images so he could locate where the Iranian troops were. We pretty much knew how he would use the information, and sure enough, as soon as we sent him the spy photos, he gassed those troops. And we kept quiet. Because he was our friend, and the Iranians were the "enemy." A year after he first gassed the Iranians, we reestablished full diplomatic relations with him!

Later he gassed his own people, the Kurds. You would think that would force us to disassociate ourselves from him. Congress tried to impose economic sanctions on Saddam, but the Reagan White House quickly rejected that idea -- they wouldn’t let anything derail their good buddy Saddam. We had a virtual love fest with this Frankenstein whom we (in part) created.

And, just like the mythical Frankenstein, Saddam eventually spun out of control. He would no longer do what he was told by his master. Saddam had to be caught. And now that he has been brought back from the wilderness, perhaps he will have something to say about his creators. Maybe we can learn something... interesting. Maybe Don Rumsfeld could smile and shake Saddam's hand again. Just like he did when he went to see him in 1983.

Maybe we never would have been in the situation we're in if Rumsfeld, Bush, Sr., and company hadn't been so excited back in the 80s about their friendly monster in the desert.

Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe he's in a mouse hole.

So many of our little monsters, so little time before the next election.



Stay strong, Democratic candidates. Quit sounding like a bunch of wusses. These bastards sent us to war on a lie, the killing will not stop, the Arab world hates us with a passion, and we will pay for this out of our pockets for years to come. Nothing that happened today (or in the past 9 months) has made us ONE BIT safer in our post-9/11 world. Saddam was never a threat to our national security.



Only our desire to play Dr. Frankenstein dooms us all.

Michael Moore
(Creator:Bowling for Columbine)

[VirginKiller]

Funnynunny no one is blaming the US people we're blaming the authorities...the people who control the US...
And you can change things....I mean you are the people...what will a king be if he had no people to rule...
What about all those poetic things you say about freedom and democracy?? I hope it's not bull****...countries were build after those poems...how can you make the world safe and free if you're not free in your own country...
Anyway I'm jealous of you...you might not have the freedom of choosing your wars but at least you are living with everything you want;)

[desertScorpion]

OK this is about Saddam caught he is caught , and will be tried , punished ,
As a punishment , I sentence him to life , n very hard labor ,start writting apology letter;s , and more hard rock labor no more , fancy stuff !!!!

[anna]

Originally posted by KB
and from my history
books the main thing that helped Russia to beat the
Germans were the very cold winters that Russia
is known for....

Hitler invaded Russia not in winter. he was planning a fast and easy war. He was planning to use his great forces and throw off russian armies, soon seize russian capital Moscow and so defeat Russia BEFORE winter comes... and he really could do so if it was not for russian people who defended their country! it were russian people who did not allow Hitler's armies to simply march through the country! strong defence of russians made this war long and exhausting for germans! (and for russians of course, but we had no choice)
it's no good to speak from another side of the ocean that russian victory was easy, and the weather was the main thing... USA was not with us that time and i'm sure USA has NO IDEA of what it was like to us!

[Aslan]

Finally someone took the bait.....did I hit a nerve
Anna.......like you said the USA had no idea what
it was like for Russia.....However Russia have no clue
what it is like for the USA......
This is what we are taught in the states about
your history, which had I not researched on my
own about your country I would have continued
to belief this myth......
Now is my point clear.....
NEVER ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE TAUGHT AS BEING
ALL YOU CAN LEARN....QUESTION EVERYTHING....
KB/MJ

[Alexdeep]

First nunny - I thought over your idea about saying "country" or the government - and i must say you are mostly right - it is better to say the government... But it is just the way of saying while the sense, the idea stays still. I understand that any american i meet could have been against the war, but the governmet did the other way. Thats why we cannot judge people by their governement. BUT. Big But. I consider that (of course it is my personal point of view) - that if a government does the wrong thing - EVERY citezen of the country takes rensposibility (bigger or smaller for any citizen) for that deed.
Why? Cause he is a part of this country. Theoretically he/she could have done smthg to stop that deed. The best example, in my opinion, is nazist Germany. When they were crashed common people and soldgiers were not judged cause they were not making decisions. And i think it is not right.
Cause there were people (germans) who fought the regime, and some - who were not able to fight it - just got out of that country (at that time) and did not work for it, did not fight for it. So i blame those people who stayed. I blame those soldgiers who killed people by order - cause they had a choice (hard choice but it was) to disagree (run away at least). Thats why i think that you are responsible for this war too (even if you were against it) cause you work in your country and pay taxes - money for the war. That is it. Nothing personal. You may the same way blame me for bad deeds done by my government.

KB! the way we are taught in our countries goes along with the topic of "History versions education" - i asked you about.
Some facts from history as an answer for your: "and from my history
books the main thing that helped Russia to beat the
Germans were the very cold winters that Russia
is known for...."
At the beginning of the war Russians had the advantage in arms all over the front line (real facts - we had more people (need to mention - rassian soldiers had less experiense), more tanks, more vehicles an so on). Then we had smthg like you in Pearl Harbour. The advantage dissapeared in a couple of days. After Perl Harbour you started building arms - you had a chance cause the enemy was not on your territory. But for us it was really hard to build arms, you know why. And the MAIN thing WAS THAT THE PRODUCTION WAS MOVED TO THE EAST. Many of factories were quickly transported to the east - and there people started building arms. Thats why even if nazist destroyed Moscow - we had a very big chance to win them. That was the decisive factor, but peoples braveness, and then cold winters should be surely mentioned too...

Oh..
Thank you guys for reading this!
P.S. Sorry for mistakes - i was a bit in a hurry...

[Aslan]

And here is another reason Russia beat German...
Sharpshooters......
And Alex I start to lose interest in history after
our civil war here in the states......
Man got to be to good at killing each other.....
KB/MJ

[Alexdeep]

Few days ago I was talking to my friend about history. I was telling her that it is not very good that she had not read a book about history events (meaning documental book). I said that it is a very great miss for her - cause history makes us smarter. What was her answer? She said smthg like: "I tried to read some of the books and i know it is really useful, but I cant read about WARS, and history is just like only about them. Remember what dates we were learning by heart at school! Dates of war events! That is history.."
There is surely a part of truth in her words. Wars. Dates of wars - big deal in histroy.
I was thinking for a moment.. Then started telling her the dates of inventions, discoveries, great buildings... The question is what you do remember..
Wars..
I don't think you should loose interest in history because of wars. Cause every war has a reason. And the reasons are stupid deeds, and ideas of people. I am trying to go inside of the problem - i dont like those stupid ideas in the hearts and minds of many people. I don't like "foolishness" in a whole (though every one can make mistakes - that is not "foolishness").
But that is a long story..

KB - may be should post a new topic about history, instead of writing here?

[anna]

Alex, why to blame people in the decisions of the government? sometimes it's very hard for ordinary people to do something against the government... you said "Theoretically he/she could have done smthg to stop that deed" - that is - only THEORETICALLY. when the war in Iraq was planned many people around the world went for protest demonstrations, saying their governments that they did not want that war started... the result we see... and the nazist government in Germany is another example. what could people do against the power of Hitler? trying to fight openly, even saying a word against his regime meant imprisonment and death. no one wanted such fate himself even for the best future... people always want to live here and now and they can't be blamed for it... what else? run away? not much people had such possibility... yes it's no good to kill by order, but in such situations it's very hard to find a good solution...
wars in history... yes, they are important cause they can turn history itself in some other direction... when i studied history at school, i had the same impression as your friend - russian history is the history of wars. it's not my business to speak is it good or is it bad... but still i prefer exact sciences where there's no divergences depending on countries, persons, etc... understanding saves a lot of time!